Sleep Training | The Baby Sleep Site - Baby / Toddler Sleep Consultants

Controlled Crying – 5 Reasons Why This Could Be The Best Coaching Method For Your Child

If you have been with The Baby Sleep Site® for some time, or if you have just found our sleepy little village, you know that what sets us apart is our belief that nothing works better for baby sleep than a truly individualized approach. We don’t believe there is one method of coaching that will work for everyone. No “one-size-fits-all” solutions here! Your parenting philosophy, your child’s temperament, and your unique situation will best determine what sleep coaching style will fit best. And, it may change along the way, too! If “Cry-it-Out” is not for you, but “No-Cry” methods are not a great fit, either, Controlled Crying may be the answer. Today we will talk about controlled crying, and 5 reasons why it may be the best fit for you and your little one.

With controlled crying, (also known as Ferberizing and check and console), you essentially allow your child to fuss and cry at bedtime or at the start of a nap (or after a night waking or a too-early nap waking), but you plan to check in with your child at regular intervals. Sounds pretty straight forward, right? Here are 5 reasons why controlled crying would be the best sleep coaching method for you.

1. You Want a Method That’s Flexible
Your little one is waking up many times a night, or taking tiny naps, and you are both exhausted. You know that you need to begin sleep coaching, but you don’t know where to start. With controlled crying, you can set the rules and the method to work for you and your child, as well as tweak it along the way. One of the main benefits of this method, is that you can start as gradually as you like. For example, you can choose to be in the room during the entire sleep training process, or leave during the intervals. You can start with intervals as short as 2-3 minutes, or as long as 10 or more minutes. You can also choose how much soothing you provide when you check on your child. This can be a brief reassurance with only your voice or little to no touching, to completely calming them down with picking up and hugging. You can also try different approaches to see what works best for your individual needs.

2. Your Little One is Persistent
When we sleep coached our oldest daughter, I spent months trying to help her adapt to gentle, no-cry sleep methods. But despite my best efforts, she persisted for hours each time, and seemed to cry anyway! I know many parents out there with strong willed little ones know what I mean. With a persistent child, if mom is right there providing soothing, but what the child really wants is to nurse, or to be held, for example, nothing else will do, and there will be fussing and crying no matter how much gentle soothing you try to provide. So, in these situations, sometimes the best thing to do is to simply give your child some space to learn independently. You might be surprised it may mean less tears in the long run!

3. You Have a Full Plate
I know what you’re thinking – which parent doesn’t have a full plate? I know, you are right! Some of us are working parents with babies or toddlers in daycare, and even if you aren’t, we are performing multi-tasking feats that would put any circus juggler to shame. It’s true. But for some parents, gentle, no-cry methods would be simply impossible. I found this out when our second baby was born. For parents of more than one child, spending an hour or more sleep coaching one of them, could potentially mean ignoring your other child for that entire time completely! Can you imagine sitting crib-side nap coaching your baby for an hour while your 2 or 3 year old has the run of the house? With controlled crying you can check on your baby periodically, while still ensuring your 3 year old didn’t glitter glue the dogs’ ears together. 😉

4. You Need Results, Fast!
Yes, we would all love to be sleeping through the night and have a champion napper with just 24 hours of effort. Who doesn’t want results fast?! However, we work with a lot of parents for whom chronic sleep deprivation simply isn’t an option. There is no question that all of us are healthier, smarter and more alert with optimum sleep, but for some, being tired could be downright dangerous! So, if you are one of our families where a parent has to drive a work vehicle the next morning, or be in surgery at 7:00 am sharp, you will want a sleep coaching method that provides quicker results.

5. Your Perceptive Child Won’t Fall Asleep While You’re in the Room!
A lot of parents will tell us that they simply don’t want to leave their little ones in the room alone to cry. It’s not easy, we understand. But we have also realized that there are many children who simply won’t fall asleep with mom, dad or a caregiver in the room. If they do, it will be hours later and they will already be overtired! Some babies, especially perceptive babies, seem to endlessly want to interact with a caregiver, and do anything and everything except focus on going to sleep. If you have been sleep coaching, but your little one simply seems to be distracted or frustrated by your presence – “why aren’t you rocking me to sleep mom?,” controlled crying is likely a good fit for you.

So, there you have 5 reasons controlled crying may be the right sleep coaching method for you and your family. If you aren’t sure, we’re happy to hear your background and help you figure it out!

Are you considering using controlled crying to help your child learn to sleep independently? Have you used controlled crying as a sleep coaching method? We love to hear from you!

Baby and Toddler Sleep Resources That Work – Guaranteed!

If you are tired of wading through stacks of baby sleep books that just aren't working, if you are beyond exhausted and just can't solve your child's sleep problems on your own...than personalized sleep consulting is for you. Our team of expert consultants will create a Personalized Sleep Plan^® just for your family and then support you through every step of implementing your plan. We encourage you to consider our personalized, one-on-one baby and toddler sleep consultation packages if you want to see real, meaningful results now. Your consultation package also includes ample follow-up help, designed to help you troubleshoot problems and tweak your plan as needed.

For those persistent nighttime struggles, check out The 3 Step System to Help Your Baby Sleep. Using the same unique approach and practical tools for success, this e-book helps you and your baby sleep through the night.

If you’re looking for ways to get your baby or toddler into a healthy sleeping routine during the day, I encourage you to explore Mastering Naps and Schedules, a comprehensive guide to napping routines, nap transitions, and all the other important “how-tos” of good baby sleep. With over 45 sample sleep schedules and planning worksheets, Mastering Naps and Schedules is a hands-on tool ideal for any parenting style.

For those persistent toddler sleep struggles, check out The 5 Step System to Help Your Toddler Sleep. Using the same unique approach and practical tools for success, this e-book helps you and your toddler sleep through the night and enjoy a better daytime schedule.

Or, join our Members Area packed with exclusive content and resources: e-Books, assessments, detailed case studies, expert advice, peer support, and more. It actually costs less to join than buying products separately! As a member, you'll also enjoy a weekly chat with an expert sleep consultant. And the best part - members receive 20% off all sleep consultation services!

Can't decide which product or service is right for you? Visit our Getting Started Page for help.

5 Tips to Fast Sleep Coaching

By Nicole Johnson Leave a Comment

In speaking with clients, I tend to see two types of parents. One type tends to have a mindset something like “Sleep has been bad this long, what’s another month or two?” and they are fine with a slower process and expect it to take awhile before their baby sleeps better. The other type is more like “I’m at the end of my rope. I can’t take this anymore. Please help me TODAY!” Of course, there are parents in between, but this article is for those parents “at the end of their ropes (or tethers)” and need FAST sleep coaching results. You might be going back to work soon, sending the baby to daycare soon, or you.just.can’t.take.it.anymore. This is for you! Here are 5 tips to fast sleep coaching with fast results.

How to Sleep Train Fast At-a-Glance

Decide when
Make a plan
Commit and follow-through
Decide how long is too long
Re-evaluate

How to Sleep Train Fast — The Details

1. Decide When

Ideally, you would not just decide “I’m sleep training right NOW!” at a random bedtime. Ideally, you tell yourself and/or your partner/spouse, “We are starting Friday night, so we can take a nap on Saturday (hopefully!)”. Giving yourself 1 or 2 days to gear up for it and not feel like you’re “snapping” will make it more likely that you will follow through with it. So many people we’ve talked to over the years have one failed attempt abruptly at one bedtime and then are hesitant to try again. Working yourself up to it will help mentally prepare yourself, which can be a key component of success!

2. Make a plan

No matter if you are trying a gentle sleep coaching approach or full-on cry it out or anything in between, it’s best to have some type of a plan. Will you tackle bedtime first? Night-weaning? Naps? What sleep training method will you use? What schedule will you follow or will you follow a schedule? In my experience, the most successful families with sleep training already knew how they’d handle the first night-waking or when they would night-wean. “Going with the flow” can work for the most easy-going babies, but the more intense your baby, the better it is to have a plan, usually.

PRO TIP: Too tired to make a plan but need one right away? Consider one of our Express Sleep Plans^®, where a customized plan is created just for you in mere minutes.

3. Commit and follow-through

Be prepared to commit 100% to your plan for at least ONE WEEK. We can all do something for one week, right? Once you gain confidence after the first several days, I promise it almost always gets easier. With the right plan, your commitment, follow-through, and consistency, your baby can be sleeping through the night or become a pro napper in no time!

4. Decide how long is too long

At what point will you feel it’s not working? One week? Two weeks? I can tell you that REALISTICALLY, most babies or toddlers take 1-2 weeks to make more significant changes, but with these tips you can see progress in just 2-3 days, which will relieve some of the pressure on your family. Remember, your baby or toddler has had these habits for weeks, months, or years, so it will take some time to convince them to make new LONG-TERM habits, so plan to stick with it at least 1 week, preferably 2 weeks. Remember, the rate at which you will see progress is directly related to your child’s temperament and personality and your ability to follow-through and be consistent. If you would, take a moment to imagine teaching your child to tie his shoes. If you constantly give up mid-way through teaching him how to do it in order to do it for him, he will take a MUCH longer time to get faster at doing it himself. The more he does it, the faster (and more confident!) he will get at doing it himself. Same goes with working on his sleep. 🙂

5. Re-evaluate

The pace is ultimately up to you and your child. If you feel you are making little to no progress after a REALISTIC amount of time (i.e. don’t expect overnight success), it might be time to re-evaluate your sleep coaching method, your expectations, whether your child is ready, or whether your plan is right for your situation. Please don’t spend 2 or 3 months on this process without seeing even a glimmer of progress. Most of the time, there is some other reason it’s not working, if it’s taking that long. And, if you need help troubleshooting just why it isn’t working, a third party perspective may be just what you need and we are here for you!

Need Baby and Toddler Sleep Help? We Have the Resources You Need!

Twin Life: Terrific Transitions to Toddler Beds

By Kimberly Leave a Comment

Twin Life: Terrific Transitions to Toddler Beds

Finally, a date with your couch and your favorite Netflix show. You’ve chased the kids through the park, inhaled bits of your own dinner in between cramming broccoli bits into their mouths, and wrestled them into jammies after a visit to the splash pad (also known as the bathtub). Your twins are in bed. The sweet sound of silence echoes through your house. Many tears have been shed (by you and by them) during their middle of the night jam sessions. But by and large, you are soaking in those golden moments in early parenthood when they sleep through the night, snug and secure in their cozy cribs. Alas, you hear a thump in the night and then another. Just like that, your babies are babies no more. Look out world, the big kids are ready for big kid beds!

So what’s a parent to do to make this a terrific transition? Here are some key considerations to make the change as smooth as possible.

1. Consider Your Timing

Truth be told, there will never be a ‘best’ time to transition to toddler beds. Left to their own devices, some kids would never even attempt a crib escape until well into their third year. Others are itching to hop out as soon as they can pull up on their wobbly legs. Generally, the transition to a toddler bed happens between 2 and 3 years of age. If you have twins in the same sleep space, whenever one is ready, the other will likely follow. As soon as they are making serious crib exit attempts, you will need to make a decision on how best to keep them safe.

If you feel that they are on the young side to jump ship, there are some options that can help you prolong their crib time until everyone is good and ready to give the big beds a go. A crib safety tent could be one option for preventing jail breaks. You could also consider securing your twins in toddler sleep sacks to keep their nocturnal mobility to a minimum. These temporary stop gaps can be quite helpful, especially if you have anything coming up that may disrupt your routine, such as holidays or travel. When you are prepared to move on, there are several good children’s books on the market to ease the transition.

2. Consider Your Setup

Each family will have a different set up and dynamics to consider. First, you will want to assess your baby proofing plan. Your main priority is safety, so you will want to ensure that furniture is secure, doors can be kept childproof, outlets are safe, and climbing opportunities are minimized. You may also want to shuffle around toys so reduce the amount of mess they can make. Keep the twin bedroom mostly as a place for sleep.

If your twins are on the younger side, you may want to go for a toddler bed rather than a full size mattress. Many cribs these days are convertible, so you can easily remove the side rail and give them a chance to test the waters of a big kid bed. The benefit here is that the low height will make it easily for them to get in and out of the beds on their own. And even if you don’t have a convertible crib, toddler beds are rather affordable and can utilize a crib mattress. Many children are able to sleep in toddler beds well into their preschool years, so it may make financial sense for some. This may be especially true if they are not yet potty trained and you don’t want to worry as much about an expensive new mattress. The low height can be particularly helpful when you do tackle potty training and they need easy bathroom access.

If you want to go ahead and invest in the beds they will have for years to come, you have a few options. You may start out with the mattresses on the ground until they are comfortable sleeping in an adult sized bed without rolling off. If you want to start off with a more permanent setup with a traditional bedframe, invest in a good bed rail to keep them safe. Inflatables ones are even available or you could also do the pool noodle hack where you wedge the noodles under the sheet to prevent a tumble.

Another consideration is whether to keep twins who are currently in the same space together or to go ahead and separate them. Don’t feel bogged down by the decision as you can always change your mind or have an interim set up. Many parents will keep them together for nighttime but choose a separate space for naps as they get older. To the extent you can, have some flexibility and patience as you work out the kinks. A few late night parties and they will probably settle back into their routine once the novelty wears off.

3. Consider Technology

While parenting in the modern world comes with a whole host of problems our parents never considered, it also comes with some pretty sweet conveniences. If you haven’t already invested in a baby monitor, consider getting one. Baby monitor prices have never been lower, and the ability to check in on late night shenanigans without disrupting the twins is invaluable. Also, working on a morning routine is very helpful once they can pop out of bed at a moment’s notice. Consider purchasing an okay to wake alarm clock. These handy devices light up when it is time to leave the room and can help prevent toddlers from showing up in your room at 3 a.m. There is nothing scarier than 2 sets of eyes staring you down in the dead of night.

As with all transitions you go through with your twins, it may be a little harder before it gets easier. With a little calm and patience, you will be back to your relaxing evening and a full night’s sleep in no time. You can do this!

About the Author
Out-of-the-box thinker, Krystal Workman, gets creative under stress…and life with twins happens to be full of it! In order to soothe her crying babies while alone, Krystal invented the first ergonomic twin baby carrier—TwinGo Carrier (www.TwinGoCarrier.com)—to cuddle both her babies at the same time. TwinGo now empowers thousands of parents worldwide to keep their babies close. As former President of one of the largest twins clubs in the USA, Krystal assists new parents with babywearing, breastfeeding, sleep coaching, healthy routines, and positive discipline. You can get more twin-related information on the TwinGo Blog.

Sleep Coaching – The GENTLE Alternative to Cry-It-Out

By Amy Bassett

For decades bleary-eyed parents had just two options for handling their child’s sleep problems: “cry-it-out” or make the best of the situation whilst waiting to see if their baby would become a better sleeper with time (i.e. “Wait-It-Out”). In recent years, and with the introduction of gentler strategies, baby sleep and how to save it has become much less “all or nothing!” Yet, many parents are still under the impression that teaching their baby to sleep well has to involve hours of crying, night after night. Nothing could be further from the truth! There is another way! And, today we’re going to share the GENTLE alternative to Cry-It-Out –> Sleep Coaching.

First, let’s define what we mean by “Cry-It-Out/CIO” (after all, many people have different understandings of what this means). When we say CIO we are referring to a method in which caregivers put their baby or toddler down in their crib/cot and allow the child to cry until they fall asleep. This method of sleep training does have a few variations and goes by several names including “The Ferber Method” and “The Extinction Method,” but the commonality is continuing to allow crying until the child has fallen asleep. Some parents are uncomfortable with extended (or even limited) bouts of crying and therefore avoid CIO methods; sleep training in this traditional form is not for them.

So, what’s the alternative? And, is “sleep coaching” really any different?

Sleep coaching is a gentle alternative to crying-only methods of sleep training and can be tailored to better meet the unique challenges and goals of an individual family. Sleep coaching should be a holistic approach to reforming a child’s expectations and habits surrounding sleep and encompasses much more than just putting the baby down in their crib and turning out the lights. In many ways we could compare the differences between CIO sleep training and gentle sleep coaching to the differences found in how a seasoned runner might prepare for a marathon versus the casual runner who has agreed to participate in an impromptu 5K next week.

A seasoned runner knows that a lot of prep work goes into a marathon and that in order to perform your best you need to make adjustments to your diet, your daily routine, sleep regimens, and of course, practice, practice, PRACTICE! This athlete isn’t simply going to ‘show up’ the day of the race and expect to set a personal record without reshaping the way he eats, sleeps, and trains leading up to the big day.

A casual ‘runner’ who is participating in the 5K simply to have fun or support a good cause doesn’t take the same approach to preparing. No conditioning, schedule adjustments, gradual advances in distance or speed are performed; the participant just arrives, laces up his shoes, and goes!

A family who has decided to sleep coach has made a decision to assess every area affecting sleep and help guide their child to the metaphorical ‘finish line’ through gradual changes.

What is “sleep coaching?”

While there are many differences to sleep coaching versus CIO, we’ll highlight the top 3.

Sleep coaching focuses on limiting tears and does not use crying as a means to exhaust the child
Sleep coaching involves gradually fading out sleep associations rather than “ripping off the Band-Aid”
Sleep coaching can be done in any sleep space including a shared bed (e.g. while continuing to co-sleep)

Have you been afraid to tackle your child’s sleep problems because CIO doesn’t line up with your parenting philosophy, your child’s temperament, or both? Sleep coaching is the gentle alternative to crying-it-out and may be exactly the approach you’ve been hoping for but never knew existed!

Ready to begin sleeping again and helping your baby or toddler take longer naps? We offer Personalized Sleep Training That Works For ALL Families, Guaranteed!

Struggling with your baby’s sleep? We can help. We have helped thousands of families around the world with their babies' sleep problems, and we can help you, too! Take a look at our consultation packages, and see which one looks like a good fit for you.

Click here to see all our personalized consultation packages.

Once you purchase, you will immediately receive access to the Helpdesk, and you can set up your account, fill out your family's sleep history survey, submit it to a consultant, and get started on the journey to better sleep!

Want more information about how personalized help works? Check out our FAQ page here, and get answers. Or, read parent stories and reviews here.

Need Baby and Toddler Sleep Help? We Have the Resources You Need!

For those persistent nighttime struggles, check out The 3 Step System to Help Your Baby Sleep. Using the same unique approach and practical tools for success, this e-book helps you and your baby sleep through the night.

Or, join our Members Area packed with exclusive content and resources: e-Books, assessments, detailed case studies, expert advice, peer support, and more. It actually costs less to join than buying products separately! As a member, you’ll also enjoy a weekly chat with an expert sleep consultant. And the best part – members receive 20% off all sleep consultation services!

Can't decide which product or service is right for you? Visit our Getting Started Page for help.

How Your Baby’s Age Can Influence Sleep Training

By Elaine Petrowski

How Your Baby’s Age Can Influence Sleep Training

We, here at The Baby Sleep Site®, say it often…we wish we had a crystal ball and could tell you before you begin EXACTLY what sleep training will look like for your baby! But the experience is literally different for every family. So much of how sleep coaching plays out depends on your baby’s temperament and on your parenting style (which we ask you to detail when you fill out a sleep history, if you purchase a Personalized Sleep Plan™.) Some adaptable babies calmly sail along with the flow while other babies are persistent and seem set in their ways (yes, already!). And, one of the biggest variables in the sleep coaching equation is your baby’s age when you begin. To help you learn a bit more about how age can affect sleep coaching, we polled our staff of experienced sleep consultants and asked them to share their 20+ years of collective wisdom about what the process might look like at a variety of different ages. Read on to learn How Your Baby’s Age Impacts Sleep Training.

Sleep Training – 0-4 Months

Make no mistake: Our sleep consultants DO develop Personalized Sleep Plans® for parents of newborns with one big caveat: We must keep our expectations realistic for 0-4 month olds. Newborns go through a lot of development in the early days and certain hormones and physical abilities have not developed yet. Progress may come in fits and spurts, in the beginning, and we generally stick to very gentle sleep coaching. We fully expect newborns to need help from you to relax and soothe to sleep.

From my experience as a sleep consultant and postpartum doula, I know that newborns have only been earth-side for a few weeks and are processing all kinds of new stimuli and building body systems and brain connections at a rapid rate. At this age it is the very rare baby who does not need some help to fall asleep because they have little to little to no ability to self-soothe. Asking your baby to sleep train much before 5 months would be a bit like expecting him to walk by 9 months old (which is rare). Just as he needs to develop muscles, balance and coordination to walk, he must reach a certain developmental stage to learn how to sleep in longer stretches.

Then, what are the exhausted and sleep-deprived newest parents to do? In addition to relying on one of our newborn resources, you should also consider working directly with us with one our consulting packages where you can give us detailed information about your baby and parenting preferences and we can develop a plan that suits your needs. While you won’t be formally “sleep training,” a plan for newborns and early infancy helps parents set realistic expectations about sleep needs. It includes information about feeding patterns and how a typical day might look during the first few months. Newborn plans include tips for soothing and options for creating a good sleep environment and a clear path to follow on how to build a great sleep foundation.

How will you know at what age YOUR baby might first be receptive to learning how to sleep more independently? Look for these clues: She can roll over in at least one direction and shows very little or no startle reflex (or at least not while laying flat) and so does not “need” a swaddle to sleep. It helps too if your baby has enough head control to re-position his face should he roll over. It’s also sometimes helpful to wait until your baby has passed through the very common and normal developmental stage of the 4- month sleep regression.

Before 4 months our sleep experts advise you to concentrate on learning about your baby’s temperament and personality. Offer feedings and an appropriate nap gap that allows your baby to sleep every 60-90 minutes during the day. After the first six weeks or so expect one or two slightly longer sleep stretches to develop in between multiple night feedings.

Sleep Training – 5-11 Months

Improved sleep for the entire family and great results can and do happen at almost any age, but the sweet spot for sleep training, at least according to sleep consultants here at The Baby Sleep Site® is most likely to be 5-12 months.

Generally more cheery and communicative than the newborn stage, and likely past the colic or fussy stages but before separation anxiety have begun, babies in the middle of the first year are the “clients” our consultants report were most quickly and successfully trained.

At about 6 months or so infants are out of the newborn phase, have passed their first regression and not yet completely mobile yet so standing, climbing, cruising and walking don’t yet complicate matters of sleep.

“Six to about ten months is a good age because now it’s typically okay to start consolidating night feeds and it’s easier once naps have the ability to lengthen so parents are not training for four short naps,” points out Nicole Johnson, Founder and Lead Sleep Consultant.

Sleep Training – 12 Months to 3 years old

While we “never say never” to sleep training, the newly verbal and mobile toddler CAN (and very often DOES) present more challenges for sleep training. If you can avoid waiting until this phase of development our sleep consultants were unanimous in suggesting you try to train before toddlerhood begins.

“Younger toddlers especially may not be expert communicators just yet, too, which can make it tough, “ says Daniella Knight, a sleep consultant with years of experience and small children of her own. “And don’t forget this is the age where it is literally your toddler’s job to test boundaries,” she adds.

This is the stage of development where tantrums may start. And because babies are not yet as verbal as they want to be they can easily become frustrated. They may also be going through a peak of separation anxiety. Sleep training is still possible, but it may simply be more difficult at 18 months. If you do decide to wait, we encourage parents to expect training to take a bit longer and possibly to require some extra effort because toddlers are pretty set in their ways and are…well…. TODDLERS! 😉

So, if you do wait until toddlerhood to sleep coach, plan to do so with lots of love and strong limits. Know that at this stage it is most critical to be consistent and set clear boundaries.

Make no mistake – training in toddlerhood has certain advantages too. Toddlers usually no longer require night feedings for calorie intake. And, they can communicate with some words and, more importantly, they understand what we are telling them. For example, when mom is still nursing during the night and starting to night wean at 1-2 years, Daniella recommends incorporating communication into the process since toddlers can understand more. “Now you can talk to them about the importance of sleeping more independently, and not needing to eat during the night because they are a big boy or girl. I often suggest a book called Nursies When The Sun Shines that parents can read to them,“ she offers.

So then — what is the BEST time to sleep train?

The “best” time is not the “right” time for every baby and family. “All babies and families are different and for some babies who are developing a certain way, 6 months could be very difficult, but 12 months works great. Since we don’t have a crystal ball, we never know for sure. But YOU know your baby best and should do it when it feels ‘right’ to you. You can always stop and re-evaluate if it’s not going well,” says Nicole.

“The right time is when you need a change in the way things are currently going. The best time is when you can be consistent to follow through,“ she adds.

No matter at what age you begin, Nicole offers this nugget of wisdom: “Don’t expect to be 100% done within 3 days like too many sources out there. Give both you and your child at least a couple of weeks to a month to make new habits. Adults don’t change our habits very quickly; so don’t expect babies or toddlers to either.“

In the end, we encourage parents to trust their gut and judgment on when to train. Danielle Summerville, sleep consultant and mom, reminds: “YOU are the expert on YOUR baby. We just know a bit more about sleep! Therefore we make a really great team when we work together with our clients.”